horrific invisible wounds of posttraumatic stress and traumatic brain injury, one million men and women added to the ranks of our veterans. they're the ones who will be impacted by this failure to fulfill the ten-year plan. in connecticut, for example, we see the va hospital in west haven found wanting and failing in a number of critical areas by the ig, the inspector general, of the va in a recent report that has to be addressed through capital improvements as well as changes in procedures and practices. so i would agree with you very strongly and really want to commend and thank you for the statement and the presence of so many of the members who are here today so that we can fulfill that promise. thank you very much.

request i want to thank you, mr. chairman, for allowing me to ask that question in case i have to leave. thank you. >> senator heller. >> thank you for your testimony and everybody that's here today. it's good to see you here. at 4:30 this afternoon i have the secretary coming into my office and i'm going to ask him a lot of questions. i'm going to ask him obviously about the veterans' backlog issue and progress if any are being made. the issue of lack of communication between my office and reno will be another question that i'm going to ask and hopefully get a good answer for. but there are other questions that you might think that i should ask him. are there any questions, if you were talking to the secretary today, what question would that be, and i'm going to take notes and this is your chance to advocate.

>> i wouldn't presume, sir, to tell you what to ask the secretary, although the secretary is an airborne ranger like me, so he is my friend. he has told me that he will reduce the backlog by 2015, put i would defer to members of my staff for any additional information they might want to share. >> love to hear from them. yes. >>you. we do believe that the va is making progress on the backlog. we obviously feel that advance appropriations is necessary because every year there is a lapse between the start of the fiscal year and when the budget is finally approved. that causes all kinds of problems in training, getting things accomplished and business -- efficient

businessman business manner. we would like the secretary to support our efforts to get advanced appropriations for the rest of the va and for discretionary. he himself has indicated that it's very important for his i.t. budget and construction budget to be received on time because of the problems associated with those two issues. so we would like to know if secretary will continue to advance or to support our advanced appropriations? anyone else? >> i certainly appreciate those comments and they will be well heeded. one of the issues that comes up in my office commander is the fully developed claims program. it's a new initiative by the va office. veterans who submit a fully developed claim are able to receive a decision under 125

days. and suring that the claims do not become backlogs. what more can congress and va did to ensure that veterans do get a fully develop the claim? >> i would make just a general comment before i turn this over to my staff. we believe that the reduction of the backlog is a combination of a claim process and dbqs and then also accountability that's passed onto the review officers. we think those three things are exactly the types of answers to not only reduce the claims but to a manageable level but then reduce the backlog entirely. >> let me -- if i can ask a follow-up question, i know they work hard to encourage veterans be served to file as complete a claim as possible, but i also recognize they need options to

file any wayhey want. whether that is on that forum or perhaps on paper. is that accurate and can you explain why it's important that veterans still have the option to file a claim any way they want? >> i'll defer that to the staff. >> it's important that veterans still have the opportunity to file a claim, paper on the standard or regular form. currently they can take that regular piece of paper or as many people refer to as a map ka and sends it to the va regional office and they have a duty to send the claimant the correct appropriate form to be completed and then they return it. but that starts to date the day they receive the claim. and va's proposal, they are recommending that you have to file it on that 526 ez in order

for them to start to date. that's what we don't agree with. it's very important that they still have the opportunity because not everyone has easy access to these forms and not everyone can do it electronically either. still in the early stages and filing claims electronically so we feel it's important to allow them to submit claims on paper for effective dates. >> you mentioned fully developed claims. in order to encourage people to develop their own claims, veterans, it's very important to have that process so that they can establish what's called an informal claim and as mentioned, protect the effective date. they can then go out and develop the information that's needed to be a fully developed claim. >> that claim goes through the process much quicker. without that protection, on their effective date, they will

not be motivated to go out and develop that. we'll leave it to the va which causes the claim to have a lot longer development time. >> mr. chairman, thank you, my time has run out. it's been a pleasure to participate in operation and keep the promise. thank you. >> in your written testimony you talked about several initiatives that they find have had a positive effect on the backlog of disability claims and one of those initiatives that dav refers to is the quality control regimes or as va refers to them quality review team. i don't know if you or your team is aware that the despite the positive feedback, there was a memo that was sent out a week ago today basically saying that

all staff would be working on for the quality review teams would be discontinued until further notice so that all hands could be on deck. to continue processing claims and what i would like to hear from you, is the effect that a temporary elimination of these review teams may have on a secretary's goal of 95% accuracy within 125 days. turning numbers out is one thing but the accuracy is critical. and so again, you may or may not be aware of it and joe may be aware of it. but i'd like to hear from you what you think the potential effects, negative or positive could be. >> i'll let the staff answer that question. >> thank you, mr. chairman. quality is our number one priority. always has been. we were very supportive with the

qrt teams. we are aware of this initiative. this was to go through the end of march and it's important the va makes the decision right first time. that's the only way we want it. we are going to monitor closely over the next 40 days or so to see how impacts -- we don't want to see this continue to happen. that was our concern in the beginning when the qrts were created that they would use folks when initiative came up. we've been happy with the progress in the qrt teams locally there being able to do centralized training on particular issues they are seeing at the local regional va office. we feel it's important that quality is a number one priority over quantity. [ applause ] >> also in your written statement, you stated that the most important factor driving

vva's productivity gained was the policy put into place of mandatory overtime for claims processing. i think that over time the overtime initiative has been helpful. but it is not sustainable in the long term due to employee burnout and reduced accuracy rates. indeed the benefits program portion of the independent budget recommends that we provide sufficient resources to ensure adequate staffing levels at the vva and it goes on to state that the vso's recommended increase staffing levels instead of sole reliance on mandatory overtime. what i would like to hear is a further explanation of the independent budget rationale for the positions that -- or the position that you take and the organizations took that hiring additional employees may prove more beneficial than

overreliance on mandatory overtime. >> i would like to say a few general words before i defer to staff for the specifics of that. over the years, the independent budget has been the bellweather of the actual requirements for what was needed in the va budget each and every year. every time that budget is ignored, it always results in additional appropriations in order to meet the needs. we have confidence in our numbers and we have confidence in the quality of that product and we certainly believe that you all should pay attention and heed it. so with that, i will defer to the staff. >> mr. chairman, i'll respond to that and just say in the independent budget, what we thought about was what happened several years ago when they brought on for temporary employees and trained them and put them into the workforce and

through attrition either kept them off after the temporary period or let them go. we felt that that provided va number one with the resources with sufficient trained employees and also gave va the opportunity to make a determination as to who was successful and who they can keep on. so we feel that overtime is nice but after a while people do get burned out and we would rather see even if it's temporary in the beginning, a core of people coming on board to take care of the needs and again, with automation and what va is doing, the needs for the numbers that we've asked may go down over the years. and that gives the va the ability to then decrease their workforce when necessary and just keep those that are productive. >> thank you, my time has expired. >> thank you, mr. chairman. in this year's independent

budget you included a recommendation that they must develop a new metrics in assessment tool to measure the performance of every level of the claims processing system based upon a scientific methodology of projecting workloads and resources requirements and allocations. can you provide some examples of the performance measures that you believe that should be instituted at the vva? >> i'll defer that question to the staff. >> thank you. we firmly believe they should be progressive methods with benchmark transparent so we as vsos can establish the va are meeting their needs and making sure that it's more than just production goals but also

quality goals. we will continue to watch them closely and make them accountable for those benchmarks. >> there's an old saying, if you can't measure it, you can't manage it. what part of the claims process in your view should be counted in order to be measured? clearly you can get a lot of claims out the door but the accuracy rate might be terrible. what part of the claims process do you think should be measured? >> there's no doubt that the va's making sure that everybody knows about their production metrics. so of course, we are very concerned about the quality of those claims being done. and for all of the claims that we represent, we take a look at the claims before they are

promulgated to make sure there are no mistakes and take them back to the va before they are finalized. however there are many veterans not represented so it's very important to make sure that quality across the board is being done and that they do it right the first time. [ applause ] >> having that said, that would also reduce the appeals because if they get it right the first time, then you're not going to have as many appeals. >> that was my next question, as they move down the lower the backlog, the amount of appeals are actually as concerning is actually going up. what are you recommending as far as we should do as far as the appeals process? because that is a huge concern as a backlog claim comes down

the appeals process, is going higher. >> there's no doubt. appeals are even a longer time frame than the regular adjudication of regular claims. the more we can do to fix it at the front end and i believe that about fdcs, those will help the appeals process. not only will the evidence be there at the very beginning that they need to do it right the first time but the time frame for those claims are much shorter. and i believe veterans would be much more satisfied to get a claim in a matter of weeks as opposed to months or years, knowing the evidence they submitted and all of the evidence was considered as opposed to starting a claim, getting an exam, and then not having a claim add jude

indicated to months later when it can change we the time they had their exam and ajude kate the claim. >> i have no doubt that that bill was brought to the floor, it would pass congress overwhelmingly. what are you doing to get leadership to bring the bill to the house floor for a vote on it. >> actually yesterday our the department of ohio had a meeting to discuss that fact in bringing advance appropriations forward. today along with operation keep the promise, we had thousands of call made into the capitol hill switch board at the time we were at the rally. we hope that with those phone calls and e-mails that we'll be generating today and business

that our members are making that you get the message to bring the bill to the floor for a vote. >> thank you very much and thank you very much, mr. chairman. >> thank you very much. >> i thank the chairman, i got the message. [ applause ] >> in the dav, hold your hands up, any of my tennessee colleagues that are here. as commander, i want to thank you for your leadership for the dav. i want to briefly tell you a very quick story about how much i appreciate why you're here and about a year and a half ago i got to back to korea where i was stationed and colonel, mine is still straight after 40 years, people as civilians might not understand that, you do. i got a chance to go back to

korea. and i was there in 1973. and i saw a country that was digging its way out of a war. they were never recovering from one end to the other. in 1960 they the fourth poorest economy in the world. today because of what you men and women did and people like you, there are 50 million free people and the leadership of that country said every time you get in front of a group of veterans, you thank them for us and we're doing that today. you're seeing the largest christian church in the world in seoul, korea. it's a methodist church. thanks to what the american people did, saw what happened after world war 2 roemtz. i cannot thank you enough for what you've done and made us a free nation.

i could never do enough for our veterans in this country. we have a va hospital a mile from my front door in johnson city tennessee and you have my commitment and i wrote down your advanced appropriations. i couldn't see why we wouldn't do it. i think it makes absolute sense to do it with a whole budget, get it done in one years. the va was a good start and it shows us that the veteran shows the way advanced appropriations work. i support that and the frustration i have here is the billion dollars we spent. last year about this time chairman remembers this very well, where we couldn't have an integrated electronic health record where the va and dod -- we flushed a billion dollars and still can't make it work. that's something that i think -- this is my sixth year here. i cannot understand in today's technology why a veteran service member can't lead and electronically transfer their

record. it hasn't been explained to me. it is coming down. i salute the secretary on that. he has a real commitment to that. the two things that i really am passionate about are homeless veterans. i think it's heartbreaking when you see a veteran sleeping under a bridge that honorably served this country. we had the hud vouchers and that has come down. i salute general shinseki for that. that's one of our problems at home. we've got to work on a place to house homeless veterans and people to go ahead and get the folks integrated into society. we co-chaired the invisible wounds caucus. when you have more veterans dying of suicide than combat, something is wrong. we need programs and look into that and find out what the causes are and put resources behind preventing that.

we have so many veterans in need right now. i think that's one i certainly feel passionate about. i think the other one i've seen a local level is to bring the va to the community outpatient clinics that we have, we just opened one up in tennessee, it's going to have to be expanded in a year and a half, it was that successful. i think i'm going to encourage john and i are having breakfast with the secretary in the morning. if you want to give us any other questions, we'll be glad to take them in the morning. we have breakfast with the secretary. i think it is a tremendous success and way to get the care instead of elderly veterans having to drive miles and miles to care have it in their own community. i'll stop there and thank you for your service. i hear all of it and i think we can support everything and thank all of you for your service.

[ applause ] >> you're recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. well, on behalf of i think the five californians, three of us here, myself, congresswoman gloria mccloud and congresswoman julia brownly, paul cook, who is not here and also dr. raul ruiz, i'm sorry, there's actually six of us i guess. i'd like to acknowledge the californians in the room. if you are here from california, please stand and let us know your presence. [ applause [ applause ] >> we make that trip back and forth between washington and california and we know what a journey you made and we appreciate that you've come all

that way to let us know your agenda. it's a great honor to serve on this committee and do what we can. i represent the eighth largest veterans population in the country. i met with my veterans advisory council last week. they are doing tremendous work in my county to reach out to homeless veterans to find out where they are living along the santa ana river and in different encampments in the valley, just to get a count. and i'm fully aligned as i think all of us carefully aligned, with ending veterans homelessness. i have one question that i want to ask you commander, it's my understanding that the va has published new regulations that establish presumptions for veterans living with severe

traumatic brain injury. who also have a parkinson's disease, certain types of dementia and depression and unprovoked seizures or certain diseases of hype thalt mus and pit tu teary glands. is it your organization aware of any planning or analysis that va has done that relates to the possible impact on veteran administrations backlog of claims? >> i defer that to the staff, sir. >> thank you for the question. we're not aware of any planning that the va has and how they are going to implement that but we've seen an overwhelming increase in claims at this time at this point. >> so because of that rule change we're not seeing tremendous impact as of now.

>> you haven't seen a spike in the backlog or any discussions about initiatives to address those particular questions added as presumptive conditions. >> we're not anticipating a spike in your organization you feel you're prepared as of now? >> well, i'm not sure if we anticipate a spike. va hasn't discussed it. they are going to segregate these particular claims and send them to a particular place. if that does come to fruition with veterans benefit management system they can electronically send those cases to regional offices that can handle the additional work load where it wouldn't increase the spike. >> very good. i don't have any further questions. i'll give my colleagues an opportunity to ask questions. i yield back my time, mr. chairman. >> thank you very much. mr. win strom. [ applause ] >> thank you, mr. chairman. believe me, i'm so grateful to

be here with you today. i know we have the opportunity to see so many delegates from ohio and i'm proud to be from ohio to see so many of you here today. and if anyone out there is somebody i had the opportunity to lay my hands on in iraq, i want to tell you it was my honor to take care of you. we have a wall that exists unfortunately and see is more and more now on this side of things. between the department of defense and the va and i know we're in the process of tearing that down. we're one family. when you take that oath and say i'm going to serve this country, it should go right on through. there shouldn't be this wall and this divide between the opportunities that exist to take care of our troops. electronic medical records that he spoke about, to me that is a shame and delays care, makes it

more difficult to have a smooth flow of care. i do see positive things. i was at base luis mccord last year and seen start upprograms where they are focusing on transition at the time of ets. and it makes sense to me if you are disabled, getting a medical separation that your level of disability can be determined at that time and carry over into the va. instead of having to go through these processes and having redone the services. there's other things i see starting to take place and that's guiding as they are leaving the military into being able to use the skills they learned in the military and translate them into civilian work and helping them get there and guidance on the educational opportunities. and i do believe that you have the greatest opportunity when you have the troops still in

uniform, they are a more captive audience. these are the types of things we need to do to make your job easier. tear down the wall between the two. we endured in our medical practice, my private medical practice where we had to change to electronic medical records. it can be done. you just do it. and then there's a seamless flow. things are getting better, the opportunities are great. i don't have any questions of you today except i want to thank you for all that you do. i know how active you are and how many people you help and i know the challenge that comes with that. and i want to thank you for keeping your promise of service to this country. thank you. [ applause ] >> he is leaving us after one

term of service in the congress to go home. >> well, thank you all for being here and thank you for your service and i won't be redundant but i want to thank the california delegation who is here. the question i would like to say since i have to leave, i'm going to roll two questions into one. i'll add an and. what's step has dva taken to conduct outreach specifically towards women veterans and what could the vha facilities do more effectively to integrate women's health care programs into the rest of the health care centers? >> i'm proud to say madam congresswoman that we and the dav lead all of the legacy on the women's programs and we're the co-sponsors of every meeting that has occurred with the va in order to do that.

the specific answer to your question i'll now defer to the staff. >> thank you. in 2008 we began stand up for women veterans campaign and since that time have sponsored several films highlighting the military experience of women veterans such as service when many come marching home. this summer we plan to release a special report and another event focused on women veterans transition issue. women of war come home. we plan to bring the women featured in the film to washington and invite members of congress, their staff and va and dod officials to attend a panel discussion following the film screening. the magazine was mailed to every va medical center and screening of these films on capitol hill helped to inform and educate policy makers about the special needs of women veterans resulted in legislation being passed to

improve benefits and service for women. they are also engaging this year on a special research project to look into the transitioning of women after deployment back into the civilian world. what issues they may be dealing with different from men. so that we can be aware of it and make the va aware of it. >> of course, there's lots of women that have already returned who are out there and i know homelessness amongst women is a very large issue. and the places where they feel safe when they are homeless. thank you. >> thank you. [ applause ] >> you're recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you to each and every one of you for your service.

i checked the attendance list, i'm sure there's gotting to one or two but there's no new jerseyians on the list. i know everybody is coming down next week. but thank you all for your service. it is rare that we are a panel of expertise from the dav also sitting at one table at one time. usually we're issue specific on what we're talking about. i really know he always -- when we talk about metrics kind of sets my hair on fire. i don't know if you're the once to answer this question so i'll direct it at the commander so he can maybe take a chop at it and hand it on down. when we talk about metrics and he touched on it a little bit, it seems to me a lot of time being where i'm at and many of our constituents and veterans

that it's almost that the va is running to the next major crisis. now, is it there to put out a fire or combination of putting out a fire and actually having lack of personnel to address the crisis. because it seems our attention that are drawn to metrics in the va change monthly. and it's came up to now. and it's fully developed and claims are great but now we've got an increase in appeals. so what is the flavor of the day? are we accomplishing anything or play ag shell game? i want to throw that out for comment on and any suggestions we can pin them down to actually get a set sheet of measurements to judge the progress you are trying to make. >> we have a report from general hickey yesterday that indeed there are reduction in the

claims backlog that even goes beyond what we know but i would defer to the rest of the staff for the specifics of those questions. >> mr. runyan, it's one ever things that we raised in our testimony about the transparency and making sure we can see the progression and how they are proposing it. you're right, we put out one fire and that is the backlog and someone forgets about the fact that we've done all of those claims and decided them what happens to them. they get 5% of appeals from those that are filed and that's one of the things we'd like to see the va do a better job at, giving us their metrics and how they are figuring this out and what they are looking at. one of the issues that we talked about in the independent budgets again is vha is able to determine what their needs are

through a metric program and vba should be able to do the same. >> i appreciate that because it's -- i sit up there and chairing the subcommittee on disability and memorial affairs, it's a daily occurrence. what problem are we going to tackle this week and at the same time the va sits here and says it takes us two years to get anybody trained to do any of this. >> if i might, we do believe that the transformation to paperless process is the right thing to do. it's in its fourth year, i believe. it's not an easy thing to transition a large bureaucracy into paperless process, but we believe many of their initiatives are now coming online. and we're hoping that they are showing positive results and will start to help the process

be much more quality effective from this point forward. >> thank you for that. >> i'll leave with this. dealing with advance appropriations and i know i brought this up when secretary shinseki sat in front of us, it was literally within the first couple months of my term, first term three years ago, and i went to the district and brand-new expansion, they had the x-ray machines sitting there. they couldn't install the x-ray machine because they didn't have the i.t. budget to put the kad 5 wire to hook it to the computer that came with the x-ray machine. that's the detail we're talking about. i yield back, chairman. >> mr. waltz, you're recognized. >> thank you chairman miller and thank you, commander, for your service and for continuing your service and to your family. no warrior deploys alone and no

warrior comes home a lone. there's a family and broader community, commander miller, thank you. the importance of getting this right and work you do can't be understated. minnesota delegation here, there's a couple of these folks hold a special place for me i think for sergeant whitehead is here. he and i served together in the same artillery unit so i'll speak up for you back there sergeant. dave went zell came to my office through wounded warriors, dave are you here somewhere? i ask that to make sure you're working. thanks. good, he's here. we're grateful to each of you. no one comes to capitol hill with more credibility than this organization. and no one understands the importance of what you're doing. this goes beyond care of our wounded warriors and cuts to the heart of our democracy, what our

values and commitments and what do we do as for those who want to know a little bit about service to the nation. we understand now through technology and other things that less and less people serve in uniform. that's a good thing. as you know, what comes with that service, somebody still has got to do it. the rest of the folks who aren't doing it need to understand that veterans benefits aren't a charity or a lottery. that's not the way this works. they are not a secondary thing that you think about. we have to get this right. we have to get it right not only morally do the right thing, we have to get it right because it cuts to that core of the nation. what's the next generation looking at? when you bring these things and bring your credibility up here, it's broader than that. you hear that. it's healthy to have debates up here. it's not healthy when veterans as commander said are put out

there and their well being at put at risk because we have political differences. i can tell you it's healthy to have differences. this thing about you people can't get along and you have differences why can't you agree on that? i feel have you ever been married? do you agree all the time? you love your spouse dearly but you have differences and find that commonalty. this chairman and these folks you heard speak, there's no one i would rather stand with than them. we agree for care of our veterans and the basics of the democracy that are right and when you come here and bring these things up, it's critically important. for many of you i see familiar faces here, there's folks here, you didn't only fight the nation's war but came back and fighting for these things for decades. there is a tendency why do we have to fight? you're right but democracy always has to keep going and keep coming. we have to keep at it. it's not going to run itself but

we shouldn't have to put up with nonsense of not having the funding there when it's needed and fighting whether we were injured and how that injury came about. and how do we get the care because no one in my district or any of these folks districts tells me, you know what you guys need to do. you need to cut the budget by making sure they don't get the care they need. i've never heard anyone say that. they say lots of things good and bad. that's not one they say. so keeping the promise, nothing should be easier than keeping that promise. every person in america wants us to keep that promise. [ applause ] >> here's what you need to know and folks sitting up here, i think it's important to understand and you who come out here, there is literally millions of folks working today and have families, they couldn't come out. you sacrificed. these folks out here in capitol hill, they are the best at what they are doing.

i can tell you what, many things that get done here, they don't get done because of political malice or anything like that. they get done out of ignorance because people don't know. somebody needs to explain how it works and get this right. what you understand is that in this country right now, president kennedy was right about this one, you can curse the darkness or light the damned candle. come here and make people light the candle. find a solution, bring it forward. your advanced appropriations, that's a kandsle. get it done, get it fixed. it's not that difficult. [ applause ] >> i'm going to ask one thing how we can together help this. senator boseman was part of a little documentary done that was on jason ear heart and his family, he was blown up in iraq. he came back home and the va as

we did with the camp lejeune bill. through new technology it's not good enough just to get the guys in wheelchairs and good enough to find the newest prosthetic because there's folks living testimony to this, we don't know what the limits of rehabilitation are. let's get it there. then we also promised and said if your parents or your spouse are taking care of them, we're going to help do that because they may be your son but they are our warrior. you're giving the love and doing that -- >> [ applause ] >> i'm out of time. i'm out of time but what i'm telling you this, jason and his parents, it's not happening the way we intend it to happen. they are paying out-of-pocket for those type of things. we have to figure out how to do better. this kid, this 23-year-old kid summed it up best. he said, what kind of person wants to be told they plateaued? what kind of man wants to be told i'm plateaued? i'm not plateauing i want to see

and do things again. that's the candle we need to light. i would home we come back to figure out how we ask for that implementation. thank you for indulging me, mr. chairman. [ applause ] >> you know why we call him command sergeant major, the highest ranking enlisted soldier ever to serve in the united states congress. [ applause ] >> miss brownly, you're recognized. >> i too want to welcome everyone who is here from the great state of california. thank you for traveling here and thank you for what you do every single day for our veterans in california, my hat is off to you. and thank you, commander johnston for your testimony

today and your very detailed written testimony that has been offered to us. i think this is an excellent document for us to hold on to and document that we can refer to often to make sure that we are fulfilling our responsibilities not only that we are providing the services our veterans need but our oversight responsibilities as well. thank you for that. and you describe the men and women in this room as men and women of honor. and i just want to tell you, i concur wholeheartedly that every man and woman in this room are men and women of honor. and every man and woman who have served our country are men and women of honor. and i want to express my deep gratitude to them. [ applause ]

>> i wanted to follow-up on congressman mcleod's questioning with regards to our female disabled veterans and female veterans in general. and i'm very excited to hear about what is coming forward this year. i will look forward to the film screening and look forward to the hearing if there's anything i can do to be helpful in that process, i would be delighted to offer a helping hand. i want to know if we will get to a place where we actually have very -- one of the very specific things we need to do for our women veterans and then our ability to create the metrics that we've been talking about today and the transparency to have the metrics that we need for us to oversee and make sure that we are providing everything we need for our female veterans.

>> i'll defer to the staff. >> thank you. over the last several years va researchers have been evaluating the current health care delivery model for women veterans. as you know the population of women using the va system has doubled over the last five years. we're pleased that one of the v a's secretary's highest goals is to ensure that all women veterans have access to high quality health care from a provider proficient in women's health and all facilities. there's still work to be done, to fully achieve this goal, we believe va is heading in the right direction. we especially want to be sure that women veterans have access to all va special programs and services. >> thank you, sir. >> i appreciate that. and last week the -- this committee, subcommittee on

health, dr. ben shack and myself head a subcommittee and actually in my district in ventura county, in california, to discuss access to traditional and alternative mental health care. we learned a lot in that hearing because we -- my county, ventura county, up to a 44-day wait period to get any kind of mental health care services, which is way too long. intake for mental health services, our veterans in ventura have to travel into los angeles county to just do the intake for their services. we are -- we don't have enough mental health providers to meet the needs in our county. so i am looking forward to being able to resolve some of those issues. but we did spend a great deal of time also talking about

alternative mental health options. and i understand that the dav hosts a miracle on the mountainside event. and it sounds like a really wonderful event and i'm curious to know from your perspective, are there other alternative forms of therapy that the dav has found to improve psychological well being of veterans who are suffering from post-traumatic stress. >> i serve as cheer operating officer in my full-time job at the largest mental health agency in cincinnati. yes, there are many things that are done and many things that the dav funds that are alternative therapies through our charitable service program and staff can tell you what some of those are. but it can be swimming with dolphins and it can be horse

back riding or something as simple as growing a garden. all of those things are important to people that are reaching out because they have a mental illness, all be it depression or severe mental illness. the normalization of their lives is an important function of that. and we believe that and we do what we can do to fund those types of programs and i defer to the staff. >> and we agree that alternative therapies are very important. even meditation is becoming more and more known as a way to deal with those type of issues. we're pleased that the va is looking at alternative therapies. the -- not just stuck in the traditional therapy mode anymore. they are considering other types of theerpz. recently they just hired i believe 900 peer to peer

counselors that we are very excited to see the results of that initiative. so we do believe they are starting to understand the need for alternative therapies. >> thank you, sir. thank you, mr. chair for your indulgen indulgence. >> thank you miss brownley. thank you members for hanging in there. commander, we appreciate your testimony, again, to each and every one of you, that have made the trip to your nation's capital, we thank you. we thank you for what you've done for this country. we thank you for what you continue to do for this country. i would ask that all members would have five legislative days with which to revise and extend their remarks or add any extraneous materials. without objection, so ordered. with that, commander, this hearing is adjourned. >> thank you, sir.

[ applause ] something of

interest, clip it, and share it with friends. >> the united states leads the world in the use of solitary confinement where a prisoner can be isolated for 23 hours-a-day. we will hear from a former inmate piper kerman and from a

now exonerated death roll canada. >> this hearing begins. today's hearing is entitled reassessing solitary confinement part two. i will make an opening statement and recognize senator cruz for his opening statement. thank you for those in person person & those falling online. there was so much interest we moved to this larger room. and we have an overflow room as well. you will see a number of pictures of children during the course of the hearing who are

being held in solitary confinement. i want to thank richard ross, the photographer, for allowing us to use these. we have worked on programs around the world and we have an obligation to consider our rates at home. 5 percent of the world's populatipo population gives us 20 percent of the incarcerated prisoners. african-americans and mexicans are incarcerated at a higher rate and we hold more prisoners in solitary confinement than any other nation. thesis we cannot ignore these human right issues. criminal justice reform is one area where the government is still functioning.

we have made progress. in 2010, congress uninanimouuna passed the act that stops make a difference between crack cocaine and cocaine. and another bill that will focus on the most serious offenders. i want to thank my ranking member for co-sponsoring that. and i want to thank senator cruz for putting this hearing together. two years ago, we heard the first meeting on solitary confinement and heard on the increase of the use in the

1980s. immigrants, children, sex a abusers and people with mental illness are held in solitary confinement. it also cost almost three times as much to them in confinement than in the general population. we learned about the human impact of putting people in windowless cells for 23 hours-a-day for months, days and years with little contact to the world. this causes psychological impacts on an inmate. at least half of all prison suicides occur in solitary confinement.

and i will never forget anthony graves who was held in solitary confine for 23 years and he said quote you cannot imagine what this does to another human being. it does one thing: breaks man's will to live. i have been here for seven years and i cannot remember more compelling testimony. at the last hearing he heard from the director of the bureau charles samuals and he is here. i wasn't happy with his first message but did agree to the assessment of solitary confinement and it is underway and i look forward to the update. in the 2012 hearing, we found overuse increases public safety

and the reality is the vast majority of prisoners held in isolation will be released and this damaging impact or being released from solitary makes them a danger to their neighbors. eric williams was killed a year ago who was killed by an inmate released from a prison in pennsylvania. we owe it to correctional officers who put their lives on the line every day to do everything we can to protect their safety. make no mistake, that means that some dangerous inmates must be held in separate housing. but we learned from states like maine and mississippi that released violence in prison by reducing the overuse of solitary. i went to a prison in illinois

that was the state maximum prison. i asked them to take me to the worst of the worst. they took me to an area of five prisoners. each of the them was in a separate fiber class unit protected from one another and the teacher. i went to each one, talked to each one and they perceived the situation different. there was one in particular i remembered. he looked to be a community college professor. i asked him how long are you sentence to prison and he said originally 20 years. and he said they added another 50 and he said why?

and i said because if they put anybody in a cell fee with me i would hurt them and i did. we want to make certain those who work in prison are safe and we have to balance that against solitary confinement. we must address the overcrowding that is making them more dangerous and increase the officer-inmate ratio. that is why i want to pass the smarter act that will reduce crowding by inmates who created non-violence drug offenses. i am looking to opening a thomas thompson center in my state to a help with crowding. let me talk about children.

45 percent of juveniles report being held in solitary confine. -- 35 percent -- the mental health effects of short isolation including depression and risk of suicide are heightened among youth. there is a ban called for isolation for children. the case state governments continue to lead the way. let's take a few examples. my own state of illinois closed the tams correction scenter. in texas, the state legislator passed legislation to review solitary confinement in jails.

and new york city is has reforms to limit solitary confine for juveniles and pregnant women. guidance is being issued for immigration detainies. this is a big step for these vulnerable people. and the american psycho called for the end of this to end for mental illnes except in rare circumstances. the united states can protect human rights, improve safety,

and be fiscally responsible. senator cruz isn't here so i will turn to our first witness. i want to note i invented the justice department to participate but unfortunately they declined. we will be following up with them to make sure they are enforcing the civil rights law in solitary confine. and i ask consent to enter the custom immigration and enforcement. our first witness is charles samuals. you will have five minutes for the oral statement and your complete written statement is in the record. if you would stand and raise your right hand to be sworn in. [swearing in]

>> let the record reflect you have answered in the afirmmative. good morning, chairman durbin, ranking member cruz, and members of the subcommittee. thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss the use of restrictive housing within the bureau of prisons (bureau). chairman durbin, i appreciate you and other members of the judiciary committee for your support of the bureau over the years, and i look forward to continuing our work together. wharf i cannot start without honoring officer williams who was stabbed in pennsylvania. we will always honor his memory and all of the staff who lost lives in the line of duty. these underscore the dangerous that staff face on a daily bases. our staff faces the dangers of other law enforcement agencies. we house the worst of the

offenders and do so with fiercer staff than other correctional systems. the federal prison system is operating at 32 percent over capacity and 51 percent over capacity at high institutions. 120 staff members were assaulted by inmates in the high security institutions police year. and 200 were seriously assaulted by other inmates. our staff interacts with a lot of them in an open setting without weapons and physical barriers. it isn't uncommon for one staff member to be on the floor with hundreds of inmates. the staff encourages them to improve their lives with

cognitive therapy, job training, drug program, and other programs. i have focused attention and resources on restrictive housing. we have olympiaccomplished a gr deal with our approach to restrictive housing. it can interfere with interaction with family. please note the majority of them remain in this situation their entire time. we have a number of regulation we will enter to make sure this is being used appropriately. we have put a variety of in

initiati initiatives in place over the 18 months. we have had discussions about wardens and other managers about the restrictive housing. we respect to specialize in mental health treatment and actiivated a stepdown unit that is providing treatment for inmates with serious mental illness and we have plans for high security inmates suffering from severe personality disorders that make it difficult to function. we have a reintegration unit to help inmates adapt after an extended stay in restrictive houses. in addition, we implements a gang renunciation and disassociation program gang to alow them to use their gang and

work toward reentry. we are reviewing restrictive housing and we expect the report to be issued by the end of 2014 and look forward to making additi additional changes. i promise you i share the commitment to proceed save housing that supports physical and mental health. through the continuous efforts of the staff who work 24 hours each day, 365 day as year, we protect the american public and we reduce crime. again, i thank you chairman durbin and mr. cruz and the subcommittee for your support of the committee. >> thank you. let me try to zero in on two or

three specifics. the law recognizes that children are to be treated differently than adults. that is why facilities for juveniles are different than prison. we know children are vulnerable to solitary confinement. we heard from a man name john stewart about his short time in solitary confinement. nowhere is the damaging impact of incarceration on vulnerable children more obvious than when it involves solitary confinement. i don't believe juveniles should be in solitary confinement. i know the federal prison has a limit number of juveniles, but what policy and guidance does

bop have to ensure the juveniles are not placed in solitary confinement except situations where there are no alternatives to protect staff? >> i recognize the unique need to protect juveniles. we have 62 juveniles in contract facilities. and they have to provide 50 hours of various programs to ensure that individualized training is also provided for these individuals under our care. out of 62 inmates in our system, in thes contract facilities, we only have one individual in

restrictive housing. any individual in restrictive housing, there should be 50-minute checks done. we're ensuring they are working with a committee to ensure a lot of issues are addressed and we are moving them at the earliest day possible. >> are there limits to how long-they can be housed? >> if they are going beyond five days there has to be a meeting to justify why there is a continued need. we only have one individual being used under the rarest circumstances when there is the belief of potential harm to the individual and/or to others. we don't support long-term

juveniles in restrictive housing >> i would like to ask you about mental health when i cthink it s linked. senator lindsay grahm asked about how this affected prisoners and you responded there was no study conducted and that frightened me. i am pleased that one of the five key areas for the independent assessment of health. and i would like to ask you if you anticipate the assessment will help provide the mental health effects of segeraration

do you agree that people that exhibit this behavior need more mental health treatment and not just a lockdown? >> yes, sir, to your first question. i do believe the assessment being conducted will provide us a road map to look at the internal operation relative to treatment that is provided to the inmate population when placed in restrictive housing. as i have indicated, since the hearing that was conducted in june of 2012, this assessment has been put in place with our audit. we are very much in agreement with the number of mental health staff being provided to look at the specific population when individu individuals are placed in

respect -- restrictive housing -- with mental illness. we asked staff for scanning -- psychology care -- >> has that changed? >> yes, sir, we have five individuals devoted to that population. we are in the process of hiring a full-time doctors and there

are a lot of things we can do remotely but we're increasing the staff and staying on top of it. >> has there ever been a time when you have been in charge with a person is released from retrictive housing directly to the general public? >> yes. and that is something from it discussion that we had in june of 2012, we have discussed extensi extensively throughout the agency with leadership and i don't believe it is appropriate. it is something to address. no one should be released based on the concern that was raised directly from restrictive housing to the general population and we will do everything possible to ensure we have things in place. we have implemented a step down

unit for those suffering from a significant illness so we don't have them going out without a form of treatment. >> the last question relates to testimony. we have witnesses coming in. testimony about women, particularly pregnant women placed in restrictive housing. what have you found? >> out of 14, 008 female offenders we have in the system, only 197 with in restrictive housing. in an individual requires placement to ensure no threat to themselves or others, we are not

looking to put people in restrictive housing. the majority of the time it is temporary. these are not individuals who are placed in for long period of time. >> could you define temporary and long period from your point of view. >> if an individual, right now out of the entire population, for individuals in restrictive housing and i will start with the special housing unit, we have 9, 400 individuals in there. only 15 percent are in there for periods longer than 90 days and that is sanctions relative to discipline or administration detention. displain and sanctions are for violating a rule and we need to maintain order within the facility if individuals do thank

think things that require short-term. and long-term housing like due to threats to the facility or harm to others and ensuring we're keeping them safe, requires longer periods. when you look at the control element, we have 47 percent of those individuals and 13 inmates at the adx. 47% have killed other individuals and that is a combination of murdering before they come in or murdered other inmates or staff within the system. those individuals require longer periods of placement in

restrifkt -- restrictive housing -- i am not saying, however, that we given on them. we are doing what we deem is appropriate and assessments by staff for consideration. i am hundred percent behind ensuring that we're not causing damage to an individual placed in that setting. but to ensure the safety of inmate and staff, the individuals that only represent, sir, a small number within our entire population, it is less than 1/5 of a percent when you look at the 215 in the agency,

the number is small. even when you look at the displain -- discipline -- you are talking about 1500 inmates from a 250,000 population. we will continue to reduce the number, as best as we can, and i am committed that in our population, it is better manage inmates in general population. they need to have to opportunity to participate in programming. and when we are looking at recidivism reduction, we want them receiving a lot of intensive programs we can provide. when they are not given those opportunities, you are looking at the issue and concern relative to threat to public safety.

and we do not want to be a part of anything that causes us not being able to bring about the mission. >> senator chris? >> thank you, mr. chairman and thank you for holding this hearing. everyone here shares a number of objectives and wants to make sure federal prisoners are held in a humane manner that respect their dignitity and also allows rehabilitation when possible and ensuring the safety of other inmate and of prison guards trust today guard some of the most dangerous people in the country, if not the world. mr. samuals, i appreciate your

service and being here today and engaging in this discussion. i mind like to ask questions to further understand and the scope of solitary confinement within the federal prison system. you testified there is 250,000 inmates to about 1.2 million incarcerated in various state systems. and the majority are in the general population at any given time in the federal prison? >> yes, sir. the majority are in general population. also, the majority of the inmates in the system spend the entire period in general population. this is a small percentage. right now 6.5 percent is in some

form of restrictive housing and when you break that down with temporary, they are given a set number of days and/or months they have to serve. in a prison environment, and i would hope that everyone understand that it is all about order. and if we don't have order, we cannot provide programs. we're constantly looking down institutions. since the hearing in 2012, we have restricted housing population reduction by 25 perce percent. we have gone from 13.5 percent to 6.5 percent. so reductions are occurring. we are only interested in

placing people in restrictive housing when there is justification. we have 20,000 gang members in our system. they are watching this hearing. they are watching our testimony very, very closely for the reason being if they see we will lower standards and not hold the individuals accountable, it puts the staff and inmates at risk. and this is why i mentioned in my oral statement, we are looking at staff being injured and harmed but our staff is putting their lives on the line to protect the american public. and we have inmates within the population who are being harmed by these individuals who have no respect, i mean no respect for other's when it comes to their safety. we cannot afford, at any time, to say that for those individual

whose assault staff, assault inmates don't have accountability. this is no different than in society. if individuals violate the law, hurt citizens, they are removed from society and placed in a jail or prison. if these individuals attack police officers, they are not given second chances where we say don't do it again. my staff, as i have indicated who are putting their lives on the line, have to know there is accou accountability for others. with treatment and working with the individuals, we will tine continue to that. 95 percent of the people will be released at some point and we have an obligation to do

everything for that captured population, we are working to change their behaviors. many come in with significant issues. we have to address those issues. and this is very important for the subcommittee to know that when you look at secure levels for mental health, we have approximately 94 percent of the inmates within our system who have no mental illness. 94 percent. that is 187, 264 inmates. we have 1-4 care levels. when you go to level two, your talking about 10, 809 individuals who have been diagnosed with mental illness that would require the mental health staff to engage with these individuals once a month.

care level three. we have 500, 055 inmates that require intensive treatment and we need to make sure they are receiving access and there is quality time with mental professionals. and 286,000 individuals are acute individuals. the majority of the inmates don't suffer from significant ment mental illness. it is a very small number who will do anything to hurt others.

i have been in the prisons 26 years. i have talked to inmates and had inmates tell me if you release me to the general population or take me out, i will kill someone. i have a duty and obligation to protect the staff and inmates and when someone is willing to tell you if you do this, this is what i am going to do, there are issues with that. >> i appreciate your decades of service. as someone who spent a significant portion of my adult life in law enforcement, i am grateful to the many employees of prison, many who risk their live toes protect citizens every

day. it isn't an easy job you are doing. i would be interested what is the value of solitary confinement and what circumstances should it be employed and what are the risks? what are the downsides to using it as tool? >> the value of restrictive housing should only be used with slight necessary for those individuals who pose a threat to other and the safety and security of the facility. that is to make sure we are protecting staff, inmate and the general public. it should never be used as being viewed as retaliating against

individuals. we are trying to correct behavior. i strongly ensure that we use it for the sake of we can. it is no different than the state systems who are looking at this issue as well. and the one thing i do appreciate is this is a national discussion. the association of state correctional administrators, which i am a member of, immediately after the hearing, we all met. we talked about the best practices what we should be doing. when you look at state systems, federal systems and even toe -- at the -- alexandlocal level, y

different ideas on what restrictive housing is. and we are reaching out to the jurisdictions to provide their best practices and it will be posted on the website. ...

>> to look at what they are attempting to do and what they are doing, and i'm very, very mindful the concern, and i am the direct in treating inmates respectfully, ensuring they are living in a humane environment because our actions will dictate to these individuals what our country's all about, and we are not there to judge these individuals. we are there to ensure that they serve their time, cater to society, and hopefully put them in a better situation so when they are released, they are productive citizens. the goal of them never returning so that i don't see a downside with individuals who are not abiding by the rules because if they are not abiding by the rules within the prison, i mean, at some point when they are

released, there's no accountability. we have to hold them accountable because if they go out and continue with that behavior, guess what? they are coming back. we will do everything possible to try to get them to turn and move from the negative behavior, but that requires intensive treatment. i'm also looking at ensuring that we are developing a therapy program for those individuals who are within our restrictive housing unit we want there to be an active engagement of showing, hey, we can be willing to accept the olive branch. we just don't want to leave individuals sitting there. >> very good, thank you, mr. sanders. >> senator cruz. senator franken. >> thank you, i want to welcome

a minnesotan testifying later today. you terned your story from tragedy to hope, and thank you for holding the hearing and all the work you've done over the years. this practice, solitary confinement, restrictive housing is troubling for a number of reasons, moral reasons, economic reasons as the chairman said in the opening statement, public safety reasons, and one of the aspects of this that concerns me is mental health aspect of the problem. we've been discussing over the years we've seen the corrections and law enforcement system take on more and more responsibility for responding to menial illnesses, and our communities. last winter, i hosted a series round table discussions with law

enforcement, personnel, mental health advocate, and my state of mips. the the sheriff who runs the jails in minnesota told me about a third of the inmates in his jails really belong in mental health treatment programs and not behind bars. you've been talking about treating people behind bars. maybe that's not where they should be treated. if it's possible. there are people with illness who committed some crimes that they need to be behind bars, but there are a lot who should be elsewhere. i have a bill called the justin's mental health collaboration agent to improve access to mental health treatment for those who need it, and i think we're leaving -- the purpose is to relieve burden on law enforcement personnel and on correctional personnel.

the bill also funds flex the in creating alternatives to solitary confinement in our jails and prisons. i'd like to thank senators durbin, leahy and others for cosponsoring the bill, and i want to ask others to join that effort. i want to ask you a couple things. one about crisis intervention training. director, last march, i visited the federal medical center in rochester, minnesota. they have -- they are kind of a psychiatric unit and also behind bars, and they said they benefit tremendously from crv, crisis intervention training, and they avoided serious incidents that

may lead to inmates going in the solitary confinement when they act out, become violence, and we see these on the weekend shows, show people behind bars, and the guards have to strap op all kind of protective wear. they can avoid that by understanding when some -- and talking someone double instead of in a way not provoking terrible conflict, but also not stopping it. can you talk a bit about the role that cit, crisis intervention training, plays in federal prison system? >> thank you, senator franken, and i'm glad you raised this question. the national institute of correctness, part of the bureau prison, actually provides the training for crisis intervention, and it is based on a request of the state system.

we ensured that our staff, and as a result of what they have seen, we implemented our own protocols, related to the youth various element, and we have bill tested this training in one of our institutions, and as a result of it, we are obtaining the feedback with something that we are considering to look at actually adopting within the bureau based on the federal system in our unique needs, so to your point, it does serve value, and we're looking to explore doing more with it within the federal system. i kind of want to, you know, you provided a lot of status statistics about solitary or restrictive housing. i just want to get more into the

human aspect of this. i kind of want to, crisis intervention training, but how big is a cell? how big is the average cell in solitary? >> average size? >> cell, yeah, the size of the cell, how big is it? i'm trying to get this -- is the human thing we're talking about. how big is the cell? >> the average cell is -- i guess -- you're looking for the space of what -- >> yes. the dimensions in feet, in inches. the size of the cell that a person is kept in. i want to get some idea of -- i don't know -- am i asking this wrong?

[laughter] is there -- i mean, is what you're saying is that there is no such thing as app average cell for solitary? typically, in the bureau of prisons, the cells in solitary confinement, how big is the cell typically? >> the average size should be equivalent to six by four. >> okay. that's an answer. six by four. does a person in the cell during months and months say of this, they have ability to talk to families? >> yes. >> they always do? >> it's not op a frequent basis, but we provide individual to restrictive housing op average.

i mean, they are receiving one phone call per month, and this is something that we are looking at when i talk about reforms for our disciplinary process for those placedded in restrictive housing that we need to change, that is something we are willing to continue to look at to ensure we provide more access for frequency for the phone calls as well as visits. >> well, i've run out of of time. we'll have some witnesses who may be more descriptive. >> and it's ten by seven for the cell size. >> okay, thank you. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you, senator franken. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you for your service and all that you're doing to address what is really a troubling situation. we do have someone on the second

panel who will testify or talk about women being con finded in solitary for reporting abuse including sexual abuse by their bureau of prisons staff. i have a series of questions regarding this situation. are you aware of this happening in the system? rare as it may be, we hope? >> yes. >> same question. then what do you have in place to prevent this kind of abuse from happening? >> well, what we have in place is our staff being active in ensuring rounds are made. we have also addressed concerns with ensuring the inmates are able to reach out and let us know and being comfortable with that. we have zero tolerance. >> so you have zero tolerance, so does that mean that that inmates that this is happening

to feel free to come forward and report? who would they report this too? certainly, it shouldn't be the person that, you know, has power over them and who is actually the abuser, alleged abuser. >> they're able to report any allegations to staff, and we also have a hot line number that the inmates are given, and they can also report it in that manner. >> in terms of getting the information out to inmates, do you do this in written form? how do your inmates know, regardless if they are in solitary or in the general population that if they are faced with this kind of abuse, that they no what to do, where to go. >> it's provided to the inmates' population verbally during discussions as well as in writing. >> mr. chairman, i would --

would be good to provide with a sample or, in fact, a directive regarding what they tell the inmates, this is the situation, so we can -- >> we can provide that for the record. >> so in terms of the enforcement of this policy or this directive, how do you go about in making sure that this is being followed by your staff? >> well, a number of thing, the local level is something that the leadership concludes that staff are focused on ensuring we do call control review. we utilize our national office when we go out and conduct audits of the facilities. we look at the operation practices and procedures to ensure that we are following

policies. >> how long have they been in place? >> for decades. we've always have zero tolerance for any type of activity and given the staff to carry it out. for the individuals who do this, we quickly take all allegations seriously, and those individuals are removed from general populations as well as the individuals who have been victimized to make sure we're looking at the security issues on both sides, and we ensure that the investigation relative to the allegation that we're doing it in a timely manner, and holding those individuals accountable because as i mentioned, senator, we do not

support nor do we want anyone victimizing others. not being held accountable for their actions. >> and is this kind of behavior considered a crime for which the perpetrator can be prosecuted? >> yes, and if the investigation's leaked to individuals charge, which we refer all issues to the fbi and then they move in, and they did their investigation and, ultimately, this determines whether or not a crime is committed, and we believe ensuring those individuals are held accountable to the fullest extent of the law. >> do you have the numbers how many are prosecuted in a way and then discipline and then prosecution. >> i don't have that information with me currently, but i can provide that for the record. >> do you have that? >> yes. >> thank you.

any studies on the effects of solitary confinement on recidivism and early entry? >> there's been no stoids as a result of the hearing conducted in 2012 when that was presented to me, and we have not participated in any type of study. we dprea to undergo the analysis that's take b place right now with cna, and hopefully from that review, we'll have some insight, but, senator, i have to add, when you are looking at recidivism, that will require a long period of time to assess when you're looking at the number of individuals who have since been released and impact on recidivism, and, also, they have resources for ensuring if we undertake something like that, there's substantial costs, but currently, we do not have anything like that in place other than what we're being looked at. >> i recognize that it's not

that easy to determine cause and effect in these situations. are you aware of situations that show differences in the effects of solitary confinement on men and women? >> no. >> is this an aspect going to be addressed in some ways in the studies you refer to? >> the competence of the study we're undergoing now, that's not part of the assessment, but i agree with you. it's something that we should continue to look at, but also, as i stated, when you look at the gender issues for restrictive housing, the number for us is very, very, very low for the female population, and they are not as likely as the male population to be engaged in behavior that requires them to have restribtive houses for long period of time. >> you have 198 women in

restrictive housing. how many of them are in the adx facility? >> we do not house any females nor do we require for the record to have that type of housing for female inmates, only for males. >> thank you, thank you, mr. chairman. >> [inaudible] >> thank you very much for your testimony. we appreciate it. we're going to follow-up with the questions raisedded here earlier. we invite the second panel to come before us and ask the witnesses to take a place at the witness table. i'll read background on them before they are called on. rick is here, the executive director of the colorado department of corrections, three decades of law enforcement experience for this position. he was secretary of wisconsin department of corrections, and he also received at deputy secretary. previously, he was a sheriff at bane county, wisconsin, served

as u.s. assistant attorney and assistant attorney and undercover and narcotics executive and deputy sheriff, and i thank him for joining us today. thank you for being here. piper carmen is with us, author of the "new york times" best selling memoir "orange is the new black: my year in a women's prison," it was recently adapted into a netflix original series. she works at the communications consul at that particular time for nonprofit organizations and serves on the board of women prisons association, spoke and written about prison issues in media outlets and received a 2014 justice trail blazer award from john j. college center for media crime in justice. thank you for being here. president of the justice fellowship, public policy affiliate at prison affiliate advocate principles for restorative justice found in the bible. he